Blazej:You cite many interesting models from abroad (Amsterdam, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Barcelona...). I have doubts that transferring them to our land has a chance of success. After all, we live in Poland, a country where many people still do not recognize the "right to housing" as a "human right." Is our society ready for grassroots change? For urban anarchism, tearing up sidewalks and planting flowers, establishing gardens between blocks of flats?
Joanna: Excessive attachment to private property and aversion to the common are big obstacles to the creation of quality public space. Despite this, Polish cities today look much better than they did a decade ago.
Here, a good way to move beyond thinking only about private property is cooperative ownership, a form of co-ownership. It allows to maintain democratic control over resources, because everyone, regardless of the contributed capital, has one vote. At the same time, it has an incomparably greater influence on how a particular project will develop than on the development of the city as a whole. Something that is shared does not have to be immediately public. Besides, the successes of Polish crowdfunding platforms show that we are open to various forms of co-ownership and joint investment in various types of projects.
I envision development as a process based on our need for control and ownership, leading to the rise of cooperatives set up by cities. An example of such a solution is the Full Life Factory project underway in Dąbrowa Górnicza, around which many interesting initiatives are being developed. For example, a planned crowdfunding collection for a local brewery - the successful 2018 collection by Jastrzębie Brewery on the Beesfund platform is a model here. The next step could be to develop further investments together with residents - using not only their knowledge (as is done in consultation processes), but also their capital. On the principle: "Create the space together with us, and then enjoy the profits from the investments." All residents could benefit, for example, from an urban farm or hydroponic farm as customers, but also benefit financially - as co-investors and co-investors. Co-investment creates a very different climate from that in Lodz, where big investors are still sought after to decide on the city's development in the privacy of their offices with the mayor. This approach is very alienating. How is a resident supposed to feel, when at every step he receives the message that his potential and involvement are worth nothing, that he is supposed to be happy that anything is being done at all?
Small-scale investment is a phenomenon that can take hold in Poland, contrary to the popular opinion that we are distrustful and reluctant to act collectively. This is evidenced by portals for both equity crowdfunding and charity, fundraising. I imagine that in an ideal city model, the authorities would set up development cooperatives, discuss the future of an area, and then allow residents to buy some shares so that they can - co-determine the future of the investment.
Blazej:My impression is that in the case of public investments, the authorities too rarely ask the public for their opinion. Then they explain that only a few people took part in the organized consultations....
Joanna: People are tired of consultation processes, because they feel that either their opinions are not being listened to or projects are moving too slowly. Several recent Warsaw projects that were important to me have been put on hold - like the consultations for changes in the streets of Upper Mokotow, where I live, or the large housing project of the Warsaw Estate.
Blazej:Or maybe it should be done differently, better, use more resources.
Joanna: Success or failure doesn't necessarily depend on the resources allocated for the consultations. The key is the sense of influence. We have various participatory tools at our disposal. One of them is the local initiative, which is sometimes used in the case of yard renovations, among other things. Male and female residents can get together, create a project to revitalize a backyard. They contribute their ideas, their labor, and sometimes in-kind contributions to the initiative. The city provides the rest: access to the land, additional tools and resources. As a result, residents cease to be mere reviewers of a city proposal, they become co-creators and co-creators. All the ways that allow people to take co-responsibility for a project make the process look very different and people are more willing to get involved. Another example is citizen panels, where selected people speak simultaneously on behalf of themselves and the public. It is very important that such panels are binding. As with local initiatives, there are real results. Along with them comes a sense of satisfaction that something has been done.
Blazej:You pay a lot of attention to the effectiveness of small initiatives.
Joanna: I want to draw attention to the huge potential of local communities. In 2013, experts of the Jagiellonian Club presented a vision of participatory budgeting, which assumed transferring much more funds to local communities and thus shifting some tasks to them. They proposed dividing the city into functional units of about five thousand residents. These units were to decide what to do with greenery in the area, how to organize public space. Of course, these activities would have to be within the framework of the adopted city policy. Delegating tasks to local communities could make the decisions made better and the solutions closer to real needs.
Blazej:You describe in the book a very inspiring story about the defense of the Press Bar in Warsaw. As I was reading, I began to wonder if the crux of our problems in the struggle for a good living space is not too general an approach, expecting full agreement from all participants in the process. Or is agreement around one small goal, an intention, enough? Isn't the key to success to look one step ahead, instead of looking into the distant future and focusing on single goals around which temporary alliances and alliances are formed?
Joanna: Let's start with the history of the Press Bar, because probably not all readers know it. The closed milk bar was scotched by anarchists in December 2011. A group called Defenders of the Press Bar was then formed, and some of these people later sat down to talk with the district authorities. The group that scotched the premises at the very beginning and the group holding the dialogue were mostly different people. This was because the ability to act on the edge of the law and mediate with officials are not necessarily the same competencies.
In the end, it was possible to launch a contest profiled on the milk bar. It was won by a person who had no environmental ties to the defenders. What brought us all together was the fight for a specific place. Each and every one of us did what we knew best. What was important to me in this story was to show that it takes different competencies and sometimes even contradictory approaches to realize the goal of bringing a low-cost eatery back to life.
What allows you to create a city and change it is a specific narrative, a focus on a specific goal. It can't replace policy or strategic plans, but it's worth taking a step back sometimes and focusing on reality. In addition, the experience of working with people outside our bubble, our environment, can make it easier to sit at the table together and discuss other issues in different situations. For me, the fight for the Press was the starting point for other joint initiatives with the scrappy movement, including work around housing demands.
Blazej:But isn't the voice of the public drowning out the voice of professionals?
Joanna: We don't have to choose between one or the other. Different pillars of development should be strengthened and cooperation should be encouraged. A good example is the efforts to solve the housing problem. Regulations are being created under which local governments can raise funds to renovate existing facilities and build new housing. The investments are carried out by TBS or property management companies that manage municipal housing. The funds, however, come from the central coffers, the Bank of National Economy. An example of this logic of operation was revitalization. As intended, it should be carried out at the local level, but not everyone has the know-how. The Ministry of Funds and Regional Policy therefore provided expertise to local governments so that they could recognize local potential and begin revitalization efforts. In the New Solidarity Initiative report, we propose gathering knowledge at the central level and then supporting local communities in this way. Only for these potentials to be transformed into real housing will political will and determination be needed.
Blazej:You write a lot about innovation. Is it really that much of a value? After all, 85 percent of the population are "late followers" and "marauders." Observing the problems that the elderly face with new technologies and systems that supposedly make life easier (e.g., registering with authorities online), I wonder if innovation is somehow exclusionary for a large part of society. In France, for example, a lot of people are digitally excluded.
Joanna: It's hard to compare our country to France, where even paying by card is a challenge. Poland is very advanced in digitization, and the pandemic has further accelerated this. After all, people who are of retirement age today have spent their entire lives with a phone. Of course, care should be taken not to exclude anyone, but at the same time remote activities should be encouraged. Every year we will become more and more of a digital society. It's a gradual but inevitable process,
Blazej:So, despite all the problems, we should be optimistic? The future is not a dystopian "Mad Max" but small communities living in harmony with each other and the surrounding nature?
Joanna: Focusing on locality, building local communities is the only way to prepare for the climate crisis and others to come in the future. It's reducing costs, building energy autonomy. It's also the development of green cities to lower temperatures, but it's also a concern for our mental health. If we are happier, more rested then at the same time we will be more resilient to the difficulties we will face.
We must prepare for the fact that reality is dynamic, surprising. We need to create strong local communities, because if we act together, we will be stronger.
Blazej:The well-known slogan "Think globally, act locally..."
Joanna: It is still relevant today. More than ever.
Blazej:Thank you for the interview.
