The interview comes from A&B 5|24 issue
One of the greatest honors in Polish architecture is the Honorary Award of the Society of Architects (SARP), which has been awarded since 1966. In a new series in the pages of A&B about the professional path, the activities of SARP and current events from the world of architecture, Wojciech Fudala talks to the laureates of this award. This time his interlocutor is Zbigniew Maćków, the 2020 SARP Honorary Award winner.
Zbigniew MAĆKÓW — graduate of the Faculty of Architecture at the Wrocław University of Technology (1996) and Kingston School of Architecture (1994). Founder of the now sixty-person office Maćków Pracownia Projektowa (1995). Winner of the SARP 2020 Honorary Award, SARP Wroclaw Branch Honorary Award, SARP Year Award, "Beautiful Wroclaw" Grand Prix, Silesian Voivodeship Award and more than fifty awards in architectural competitions, among others. Chairman of the DSOIA Council (2010-2018), vice-chairman of the KSK at the SARP General Assembly, taught at: PWr, UWr, Solvay Brussels School (1998-2008). Co-initiator and participant of the New Żerniki model housing estate project in Wroclaw, curator of architecture during the ECC Wrocław 2016. Founder of think tank Gęsto (future of habitation) and startup "diffeRent" (apartment as a service). Privately: awkward father of four, dog-walker, runner, motorcyclist.
Wojciech Fudala: Next year Maćków Pracownia Projektowa celebrates its thirtieth anniversary. What was the reality of the work in 1995, when you started the business?
Zbigniew Maćków: Those times were very different from today. The number of temporal problems we had to solve on an ongoing basis meant that basically only afternoons and nights were left for project work. Even setting up a telephone was a challenge. In 1995, cell phones resembled a small radiator rather than today's smartphones, and took up almost the entire seat of a car. To communicate with the outside world in any way, we had to set up a landline. When I went to the Telecommunications Department, however, I learned that the waiting period for such a phone was twenty years.
A few weeks later, however, we managed to find a person who was willing to resell the phone number. This operation took us another few months. It turned out that in order to rewrite the phone to our company, we had to bring the previous owner of the number into the company as a partner. We paid him a derogatory fee for this phone, only to write him out of the partnership after a few weeks. Something that takes 15-30 minutes today, then took us a year, but we finally got that phone number.
Reconstruction and expansion of the historic "Maria Mill" complex, a service and residential building in Wroclaw
Photo: Jakub Certowicz
There were plenty of similar situations. When we established cooperation with an American architectural firm, they asked us to provide a fax number. We didn't have a telephone at the time, so I handed the ladies at the post office a packet of chocolates, asking them to give me the internal fax number that worked at that post office. Thanks to another packet of chocolates, they even allowed me to write that fax number on the business card I gave to the representative of the American office during the meeting. He had no idea that by sending English faxes from New York to our office, they were actually arriving at the post office on Kraszewski Street in Wroclaw. Each time I would go there with chocolates and pick up the foreign faxes that were addressed to us. A simple activity that today is done by email and takes a few seconds used to take 2 or 3 hours, including a visit to the store to get the chocolates. The level of absurdities we had to deal with was enormous. Today it is much easier to deal with.
Wojciech Fudala: How did the cooperation with the American office you mentioned come about?
Zbigniew Maćków: It was a period when many large entities in Poland were privatizing and the first big money from the West was coming into the market. Foreign investors were buying assets to then reconfigure them. At the time, a large investment fund bought a chain of department stores, including in the center of Wroclaw, and reconfigured them house by house. However, it was a time of complete distrust for the capabilities of Polish design offices. They couldn't imagine that we could have any know-how about how modern commerce for the time should function, so they brought their architects with them. In our case, it was TSR from New York — a renowned office that specialized in commercial functions. However, the American architects needed an executive force on the ground. They were unfamiliar with Polish regulations and needed people to do inventories or drawings.
Such tandems were common at the time. The Western office gave a certain technological input, showing how large- or small-area retail should be laid out. The Polish co-op overlaid all this with knowledge of regulations and conditions. You can say that we were something like cheap labor for them, because compared to the rates in the States, we were several times cheaper.
Modernization and expansion of the "Renoma" department store in Wroclaw
Photo: Krzysztof Smyk
Wojciech Fudala: Did you feel comfortable in such a role?
Zbigniew Maćków: At that time we considered such cooperation an unheard-of success and we were on cloud nine! Of course, we had to deeply hide our architectural ambitions and redraw what we got from Western offices. On the other hand, however, we had a sort of accelerated post-graduate course in which we learned how to exchange information, work between trades, work with clients and other aspects of the architectural profession. We absorbed this with almost every pore of our skin, and after two years of such cooperation we were already able to offer clients our own services, which were competitive with those of Western offices. We had the know-how, we had the organizational skills, so we were able to become independent.
Wojciech Fudala: What were your first independent projects?
Zbigniew Maćków: Working as subcontractors for these Western offices, we were already pursuing our ambitions in parallel, doing local, small themes independently, where we had full creative freedom. In addition, we were constantly competing in contests. It was almost an addiction for us, we did competition after competition, until finally, after four years of office operation, we managed to win that first big competition. It was the Faculty of Law and Administration at the University of Wroclaw. A huge building, for us at the time almost unimaginable, in the very center of Wroclaw, with an area of 10 thousand square meters.
Faculty of Law, Administration and Economics at the University of Wroclaw
photo: Wojciech Krynski
Wojciech Fudala: Today Wroclaw is already full of your realizations. What do you think is behind the success of your office?
Zbigniew Maćków: It is difficult for me to judge how much of this is due to certain qualities we have, and how much is a combination of circumstances, luck and other factors that are not dependent on us. However, I can say that I am an incredibly determined person, and if I decide that I want to do something, it is not easy to stop me. This is a trait that I have taken from home and I try to instill it in my colleagues.
I must also admit that I extremely enjoy building. I believe that there is a huge gap between the design on paper and the real realization, because during any construction, many circumstances unfavorable to this realization according to the design occur. Only after the design vision is consistently proven to be realized can we talk about some kind of success. That's why today, when we see that a project has little chance of realization, we just don't take it. We prefer to do a smaller topic, even a less prestigious one, but one that has a chance of being built.
Another characteristic that characterizes us is a high level of concentration. We have always made sure not to get distracted and do ten things at once. Apart from isolated exceptions, we have always operated in Wroclaw and have never even thought of setting up a branch somewhere else. We grew up and live in this city, so we have the spatial competence to professionally solve certain urban planning problems, of which there are many in Wroclaw.
Wojciech Fudala: What do you have to deal with when designing in contemporary Wroclaw?
Zbigniew Maćków: Wroclaw is a very specific city. The urban backbone here was preserved even before the war, when the Germans were the landlords of this land. The destruction of the war, however, caused almost 95 percent of the old buildings to evaporate in some places. This is a little-known story, as today more is said about the destruction of Warsaw after the Warsaw Uprising. But the facts are that during the siege of Breslau in 1945, some neighborhoods were completely razed to the ground. After the war, a new urban grid was imposed on the city, which was, however, somewhat different from the pre-war one. This rather complicated peculiarity of Wroclaw is close to us. We understand it and find ourselves in it well.
The "Nowy Targ" office and service building in Wroclaw
photo: Maciej Lulko
Wojciech Fudala: One of your realizations, however, is located at our place, in Silesia. It is the Na Skarpie sports hall in Bytom. How did this project come about?
Zbigniew Maćków: This project is from 2007, so from a period of a large drought of competitions. Sometimes we waited up to two years for the announcement of any competition, and when such a competition appeared, we immediately threw ourselves at it, regardless of whether it was Bytom, Szczecin or Poznan. We really like to do competitions simply to test ourselves against others. However, I want to point out that if we have a choice between a much less prestigious topic in Wroclaw or a very prestigious one in another part of Poland, we will always choose the Wroclaw one.
Wojciech Fudala: Would you encourage young architects today to enter competitions?
Zbigniew Maćków: Of course I would, although it involves many challenges. A competition is a job that does not guarantee that something will come of it. Often one sits up all night, and in the end the competition committee makes a decision anyway, which causes disappointment in many. However, there is nothing more beautiful than winning some competition and then realizing it.
Residential and commercial building "Witolda 43" and reconstruction with expansion of the building "Witolda 3840" in Wroclaw
Photo: Maciej Lulko
Wojciech Fudala: In recent weeks, the Ministry of Culture has announced that it will not implement several objects selected in last year's competitions. Among them was the reconstruction of the former Cracovia Hotel to function as the Museum of Design and Architecture in Krakow (Biuro Projektów Lewicki Łatak). What do you think about such activities?
Zbigniew Maćków: I believe that architecture should not have any contacts with politics. I know that every government makes economic decisions for which it takes responsibility, but there are things that should be above political divisions. It can't be that when the authorities of a country or city change, all the projects of the predecessors are thrown in the trash. I myself participated in the competition procedure for the new Cracovia Hotel as a judge, and I believe that holding up this investment is not a move that builds public trust towards those in power.
First, the Polish state bought the building from a developer, spending public funds to save it. Then more money was spent to hold a competition and pay prizes to the winners. Now the implementation has been halted, but the building of the former Cracovia Hotel will remain. It still has to be maintained, heated and the cost of repairs incurred. The problems will get worse, and the public funds that have already been spent will simply be lost. If it were a propaganda project, I myself would be in favor of stopping it as soon as possible. The Cracovia Hotel, however, was not propaganda.
Wojciech Fudala: Is such a propaganda project, for example, the reconstruction of the Saski Palace in Warsaw (proj.: WXCA)? This is also a competition you judged. In this case, however, the project is to be implemented.
Zbigniew Maćków: I wondered for a long time whether I should judge this competition, because there was indeed a certain propaganda intent felt in it. However, as I said earlier, I believe that architecture should not meddle with politics. As an architect who knows the place, I wondered whether the current space of Pilsudski Square is good, friendly and finished. I decided that it wasn't and that something should stand there. Currently, the square is one big mess, with various "obstructions" that have been haphazardly and hastily placed there. There is no closure of the square, there is no axis, and there is an urban disorder that should be cleaned up. And there is no better way to organize the space than a competition.
Integrated Transfer Interchange, Wroclaw Stadium
Photo: Jakub Certowicz
Wojciech Fudala: But shouldn't the competition guidelines be more flexible and emphasize the urban design of the place, rather than a literal reconstruction?
Zbigniew Maćków: Indeed, it's a big question mark whether a competition that favors reconstruction of what was there is the best written and conceived competition. Here somewhere lies the highly debatable limit of compromise, which I decided on, guided by my pragmatic formation. Even here, however, there were entries that approached the issue of reconstruction quite creatively, such as the awarded work of the tandem P2PA from Wroclaw and the French LAN office. They did a very poetic project, which was far from such a zero-sum reconstruction of the place. So even such a rigid corset of conditions allowed for a fresh response to the task.
Wojciech Fudala: In a previous interview in our series [cf. A&B 4/2024], Prof. Ewa Kurylowicz stated that she had doubts about the fairness of some architectural competitions and there were times when she decided to withdraw from the jury for this reason. As a member of the Coordination Team of Competition Judges at the SARP Main Board, how do you address this?
Zbigniew Maćków: It is difficult for me to comment on whether such situations happen or not. Of course, there are competitions in which there is a presumption that one of the judges is pushing this or that work. However, I believe that dishonesty should not be confused with someone's strong personality. There are times when some of the competition judges try to impose their view on the other members, but I sincerely hope that this is then due to their inner conviction and not to dishonesty. When I myself am judging a competition and I believe that some work has departed two or three lengths ahead of the others, I am also determined to convince my colleagues to choose that work. I believe that the architects who are on the College of Competition Judges are the crème de la crème of the profession. When I participate in the judging panels myself, we try to ensure that the decisions are unanimous, and we often succeed in achieving this.
Wojciech Fudala:And how would you assess the current activities of your home, Wroclaw branch of SARP?
Zbigniew Maćków: I am no longer active in the Wroclaw branch of SARP. However, I believe that in previous years the energy in the branch was much greater than today. I remember a particular eruption of activity from the time when Wroclaw was the European Capital of Culture 2016, and I myself served there as the curator responsible for architecture. At that time, SARP Wrocław received funding that we could use for various projects and events.
Last term of SARP Wrocław, on the other hand, was quite asymmetrical. There was a lot going on in the first part, but then, with the onset of pandemonium, this energy for action was depleted. I hope that the new term will bring a new opening.
Wojciech Fudala: When and why did you sign up for the Association?
Zbigniew Maćków: As soon as I could, that is, right after I did my diploma. I always thought that SARP is an Association that ennobles. It has more than one hundred and forty years of tradition, and I treated it as a kind of club that brings together the most important people in the profession, from whom you can learn the most. For decades it was the most important professional organization in our industry.
Wojciech Fudala: Do you think today's SARP no longer has such a position?
Zbigniew Maćków: In recent decades, SARP has fallen into a certain slump and stagnation. Perhaps the emergence of the Chamber of Architects, which took over many competencies from SARP, contributed to this. One can also see a huge disparity in the financial strength of the two organizations. SARP has gone a bit sideways, which I deeply regret. I would very much like it to become an organization along the lines of the RIBA in England, which is absolutely prestigious and creates the language of public debate about the most important architectural topics in the country.
"Thespian" residential and commercial building in Wroclaw
photo: Krzysztof Smyk
Wojciech Fudala: Why is this not happening?
Zbigniew Maćków: In my opinion, the main problem is the model of organization of work and management of the Association, assuming that these are functions performed socially. This model, which was created on the basis of the experience and capabilities of the previous system, is not compatible with today's realities and needs. And it calls for broad discussion and thorough reform. Comprehensive reform is needed regarding the operation of the Association, its management, budget and so on. Without the involvement of finances and the introduction of an overarching strategy, action in SARP will be limited only to administering what we already have, i.e. the SARP Honorary Award, the Diploma of the Year or competitions. But there will be no progress in building the ongoing narrative about architecture that SARP should moderate.
Wojciech Fudala: Instead, you are active in the Lower Silesian District Chamber of Architects. You were its chairman for two terms, from 2010 to 2018. What did you manage to work out for the architectural community during that time?
Zbigniew Maćków: First of all, we built a headquarters in the reconstructed building of the former kindergarten of the model WuWA exhibition estate from 1929. To this day, it is still the place where various para-architectural activities take place, not only Chamber activities, but also those organized by SARP or other institutions.
Secondly, it succeeded in strongly uniting the community of Lower Silesian architects, previously divided between SARP and the Chamber and relating to each other with great distrust. We then began to organize joint Christmas Eve parties, joint architect's balls and other events, where we as the Chamber put in the resources and SARP gave the energy and organizational know-how.
We also managed to launch, carry out and realize the New Żerniki project. This is a massive undertaking that has never been seen anywhere in Poland before. SARP and the Chamber worked hand in hand to work with the City to create a model neighborhood, which today has more than 1,200 apartments and 5,000 residents.
We also succeeded in convincing and persuading the city's mayor, Rafal Dutkiewicz, to make architecture as important a field as theater, literature, music and film in the European Capital of Culture — the first time in the history of all European Capitals of Culture that architecture was an independent field represented in all these official events. We obtained quite a large budget for this purpose, thanks to which there were a dozen lectures by the most important architects from all over the world, five-six architectural competitions, six major architectural exhibitions at the Museum of Architecture. I have the impression that at that time architecture was a really important field within the broader culture in Wroclaw and Lower Silesia.
Cooperation with SARP as part of the 2016 ECC
© Maćków Pracownia Projektowa
During my tenure, a lot of smaller things were also accomplished. For example, in cooperation with the city's architect, we published a kind of guidebook showing what the construction project we submit to the authority should look like. The book was published in 2013, it unified all the interpretations, which varied from office to office. When an architect submitted a construction project, using the guidelines from this peculiar manual, he was sure to get a building permit. There were, of course, more similar things, as I tried to use my eight years as chairman as best I could.
Wojciech Fudala: Does such pro bono activity pay off?
Zbigniew Maćków: To quote a classic, Professor Władysław Bartoszewski, who said that "something doesn't always pay off, but sometimes it's worth it". If you ask if it pays off, I'll say it doesn't pay off, but if you ask if it's worth it, the answer is most definitely yes. To be honest, during the eight years that I was chairman of the Lower Silesian IARP, I almost had my business collapse because I didn't have enough time to take care of it. However, if someday someone asks me if it was worth getting involved, I will answer without hesitation that it was.
Wojciech Fudala: In your opinion, should architects become more involved in politics, for example, by running for City Council?
Zbigniew Maćków: By all means, although I think it made more sense twenty years ago than it does today. Back then, the City Council really was a local government, not an emanation of the political system. I remember that there were five architects on the first City Council of Wroclaw, and one of them was even elected vice-mayor of the city. It was a very dynamic time, during which excellent buildings and urban design were created. In the following decades, the City Council had already drifted in such a direction that there was less and less local government and more and more political parties. Today, in order to be elected to the City Council, one has to sign up for any of the committees and support any party. There are fewer and fewer chances to get into the City Council independently, and even if you do, you still have to have a majority on that council to vote anything through.
In any case, I believe that the word "architect" includes social activity. However, you have to choose effective methods for this activity, and at the moment it is not necessarily action in the City Council. The key is to participate or even moderate the discussion of space, where we as architects have knowledge and competence. I myself brought from home the conviction to act socially and to contribute. My parents belonged to various committees, organized collections. I had this on a daily basis at home, and I myself try to be socially active even today.
Wojciech Fudala: You became a recipient of the SARP Honorary Award at a very young age, you still have a lot ahead of you. What are your plans?
Zbigniew Maćków: The Honorary Award of SARP is absolutely the highest environmental honor in Poland, which is awarded for professional achievements and for merit. I am extremely obliged and grateful for the fact that the chapter decided to award it to me a little earlier than at the stage of crowning my professional path, because it gave me a big boost for further work. Thanks to this unusual award, I was able to regroup my priorities and channel this energy into more necessary things, a kind of architectural experiments. Their goal is to try to solve two very pressing problems: the availability of housing resources and the climate catastrophe.
We, as an architectural community, are not currently trying to solve either of these problems. Instead, I have the impression that when we implement projects, we often invent an artificial problem for ourselves, and then show a project that supposedly solves this problem. Unfortunately, this is a false problem that we create for ourselves.
V High School with a recreational and sports complex in Wroclaw
photo: Maciej Lulko
As for the availability of apartments in Poland, leaving aside the general discussion of whether they are a right or a commodity, today they have actually become an investment asset. They are completely inaccessible and will be more and more inaccessible for the next generations, and we architects only look at it from the sidelines and in a sense put our hands on it. Politicians talk about it, and we carry out their agenda. We design more residential buildings, because we have to live and earn something, but they are not accessible architecture. I am convinced that this problem will enter the mainstream of public debate, and that in two-three years it will be such a serious topic that we will see demonstrations in the streets on the issue of accessible housing.
From the beginning, the architectural profession has been connected with solving real human problems. People didn't have a roof over their heads, they needed shelter, so someone who had a little more imagination figured out how to do it. However, I have the impression that over the last fifty years the profession has become completely disconnected from solving needs. We build houses for developers, we make more and more fractious geometric forms, but we don't solve any of the real problems. We need to go back to our roots. Of course, it is still necessary to earn a living somehow, so we will not avoid working in a certain routine of everyday life. However, I would like, with my own resources, time and energy, to try to build a low-cost, accessible and very ecological housing complex, so that we can get back to discussing the really important issues in the coming decades.
Wojciech Fudala: Thank you for the interview.
Wojciech Fudala
Illustrations provided courtesy of Maćków Pracownia Projektowa
