Don't be afraid of the posts!
How do we fight the urban populists? Why is it necessary to write about them? And where do conspiracy theories related to contemporary urban repair concepts even come from? Lukasz Drozda answers questions related to his latest book "Urban Fears. The 15-minute city, 5G and other monsters".
Lukasz DROZDA - Ph. Urbanist and political scientist, assistant professor at the Faculty of Applied Social Sciences and Social Reintegration at Warsaw University. Author of books, including "Urbanism from below. The Nightmare of Participation and the Production of Space" (2019), "Holes in the Ground. Pathfinder in Poland" (2023) and "Urban Fears. The 15-minute city, 5G and other monsters" (2024).
Jakub Glaz:You've written a book that combats "urban fears," or conspiracy theories that portray progressive urban concepts as visions of the destruction of humanity. The list includes the smart city, the 5G network, and even putting up poles along the streets. There's also the idea of a fifteen-minute city likened to... Auschwitz. Have you been paid much by the secret world government to fight conspiracy whistleblowers who "tell it like it really is"?
Lukasz Drozda: Admittedly, I once had a grant from the Americans, but I wouldn't count that. And to be serious: I would monetize my YouTube appearances more profitably than the royalties for this book, one doesn't earn that much on literature.
Jakub Glaz:So the writing hobby. Within its framework, however, you take a very close and detailed look at urban populists who, using so-called peasant reasoning, seek to stop beneficial changes in urban space. Is it worth spending so much time and attention on characters who are spreaders of such theories? Surely you had some clear reason to introduce them to us in such detail.
Lukasz Drozda: I have already encountered the opinion that I promote them unnecessarily, although I do the opposite. In addition, they are already recognizable, and one reasonably popular, disinformation-sowing clip on the aforementioned YouTube will have more audience than even the best-selling book. They are indeed sometimes third-rate, especially when you look at their election results, with the exception of Gregory Braun, who has had some success in this regard. Nevertheless, they are very actively trying to change the narrative about the city. We can ignore this, but remember that urban movements were popularized in a similar way a decade ago. After all, it is their strategy that conspiracy theory propagators are now using. They have begun to create non-governmental organizations pretending to be the voice of a concerned civil society. I can't, like in a Bareja movie, pretend I don't hear ugly words.
Luke Drozda's "Urban Fears. The 15-minute city, 5G and other monsters," Political Critique Publishing House, Warsaw 2024.
© Krytyka Polityczna Publishing House
Jakub Głaz:For whom did you write this book?
Lukasz Drozda: For people who want to have arguments in a discussion with urban populists, and to know when to let go. Without getting embroiled in arguments that don't exist, how to win in the face of the endless stream of nonsense with which the interlocutor can be inundated by stubborn people who manipulate facts. In addition, when we begin to substantively argue with them, we are considered to be complicating everything bored, and on top of that, ideologues. And here it is time for the second annoying accusation that my book faces. Allegedly, I focused too much on urban politics, and not on space arranged in one way or another. Meanwhile, urban policy is extremely important, as it is the source of the multi-billion dollar budgets of cities and municipalities. It will therefore be very bad if urban populism imposes its narrative on it. This populism is already on a massive scale and is being used very cynically. It is beginning to penetrate not only extremists, but also people with more moderate views.
Jakub Glaz:However, I must note, with all sympathy for them, that the urban movements operated with similar methods. They, too, consisted of a small number of people, often not backed by crowds of residents. Perhaps urbanity as such does not particularly concern Poles, and things will proceed in a way that depends on which activist group imposes its narrative?
Lukasz Drozda: This phenomenon affects many aspects of life in Poland, not just urban politics. For example: abortion - an issue important to at least half of society. Poles did not have extremely conservative views here, but this has changed through a gradual scrambling of the rock initiated by a few fanatics. I think that urban policy at the level of its effects is of interest to a great many people, although they probably don't even use the term and don't put forward their ideas.
Jakub Glaz:You also don't provide them with too many arguments in the book in favor of the right solutions, to your knowledge: for example, the smart city or 5G networks. You pay more attention to their opponents.
Luke Drozda: Because I take these issues for granted, on the same principle as global warming, for example. In 2024, there is little point in providing yet another argument that it exists. Nor will I argue with absurd theories proclaiming, for example, that modern mobile telephony causes cancer in children and young people. This is a road to nowhere. I will demolish one argument, and in its place will appear three more, equally detached from reality. Likewise with the fifteen-minute city, which, after all, is not, as I write, any modern invention intended ultimately to lock us into ghettos. Millions of Poles living in modernist housing estates have been experiencing this solution for decades and are still free people.
Jakub Głaz:However, irrational fears are worth addressing with a convincing argument. In the book you yourself mention your fears about GMOs eventually defused by a knowledgeable colleague. I, for one, am not surprised by your moderate confidence in the idea of smart cities, because - in the wrong hands - many good solutions in this spirit can degenerate into a tool of oppressive control.
Lukasz Drozda: I try to explain such demonization with an example with an autonomous vacuum cleaner. The conspiracy theory is that the world's richest man has taken over its manufacturer in order to scan our homes and push more products on us through digital surveillance. Smart people are catching on, because after all, it sounds more sensible than believing in a reptilian conspiracy. The snag is that selling such vacuum cleaners is simply profitable in itself. So there is no conspiracy, no second bottom here.
Jakub Głaz:A sympathetic anecdote, but nevertheless, it's one thing to have a vacuum cleaner, which by definition is not involved in spying, and another to have a license plate scanner, which can easily be imagined as a surveillance tool. If you don't clearly explain why and how new developments are being introduced, and who is controlling them and how, then you have to expect strange theories. You yourself, by the way, write about the shortcomings of this kind of education.
Lukasz Drozda: Speed cameras don't invigilate us to restrict freedom either, they just reduce road kill. Because of such exaggeration and lack of criticism, we will soon have a rash of conspiracy theories related to artificial intelligence while there is a gap between the declarations talking about its perfection and its actual capabilities.
Jakub Glaz:We will probably hear a lot about AI taking over the world, and much less about the real danger: its fabrication of a mass of half-truths or complete fabrications, including conspiracy theories, and its subsequent release into circulation.
Lukasz Drozda: It looks like a similar situation to that of social networks, which, contrary to their initial goals, are now contributing to sowing disinformation. And, as in the case of these networks, it will happen somewhat by the way, rather than as a result of some conspiracy planned from the beginning.
Jakub Glaz:For disinformation, conspiracy theories and urban scares, you give four ways in the book. They are all based on providing proven knowledge and factual arguments, getting ahead of lying or misrepresented opinions. Who would take care of this in the long run? And is there a chance that a larger portion of the audience will trust any authority today?
Lukasz Drozda: I see a task here for the institutions of education and science, which until now have been focused on mass education, and now - in the face of demographic changes - have a chance to provide us with knowledge and tools to be more resistant to disinformation.
Jakub Głaz:All the time, however, we will have a problem with their credibility in the eyes of the average public, who will not trust science today. Someone also has to pay for this important and not so easy work.
Lukasz Drozda: The state today can afford to spend billions of zlotys on maintaining a network of universities, only some of which present a high level and attract students. This is a great potential in terms of personnel and finances to combat disinformation. Credibility can also be achieved more easily by using modern ways of communication, something that scientific influencers in Poland are succeeding in doing, but they are not like the public media and have to choose topics that are more clickable and more likely to be watched. This is nevertheless a valuable inspiration for academics and analysts, who should get out of their mental ivory tower and learn to speak to the people outside.
Jakub Głaz:And for every such person there are dozens of others who are at odds with the facts. In addition, algorithms place a premium on gossip, sensationalism and polarized views.
Luke Drozda: Conspiracy theories will always exist. Nor will urban populism disappear completely. Since it cannot be annihilated, it is necessary to limit the damage. At the same time, it should be remembered that conspiracy theories are often propagated mainly to make money on them.
Jakub Glaz:In the book you describe such wonders as an anti-electrostatic horse blanket for... 5,500 euros. So we can expect the manufacture of new urban scares to be monetized later with more miraculous inventions.
Lukasz Drozda: I think we are in for a rash of theories related to new technologies. There will also be an increase in the power of fears related to the great migrations caused by climate change. These topics will certainly be exploited by populists.
Jakub Glaz:An avalanche of new conspiracy theories could quickly make your latest book obsolete. Today's urban fears will be displaced by new fears.
Lukasz Drozda: I'm not afraid of that, because my book discusses four examples whose mechanisms are quite universal and can be used to propagate other strange ideas. It also shows the universality of harnessing conspiracy theories to political strategies. It matters little whether the increase in social polarization will be served by stirring up panic concerning the acreage of fifteen-minute cities or some other equally preposterous idea.
Jakub Glaz:Who do you think are the creators and spreaders of "urban scares"? Are they more cynical sellers of horse derring-do, calculating politicians or secret services, or are they rather people deeply convinced of the theories they propagate?
Lukasz Drozda: I think these roles intermingle. It is possible to start from a calculating position and then get carried away by the wave and believe in the strangest theories yourself. Especially if you gain followers. I think the motivations are three. The first is the desire for profit. The second - to incite the electorate. And the third - actual fear of something you don't understand.
Jakub Glaz:Thank you for the interview.
