The 2nd International Congress on Climate Regeneration of Cities
was held stationary and online June 7-8, 2022, EC1 in Lodz, Poland
(www.regeneracjamiast.pl)
Malgorzata: The new green energy policy, in addition to systemic changes, will therefore require changes in individual attitudes, in our specific life choices, is that right?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: Of course, it is very important what choices people make! I often use the term "economic imaginary" or "social imaginary," which signals that it's not just about the behavior of individuals. It's about our collective imaginary of what is a good economy, a wise approach to the energy problem. The general environmental consciousness has been changing rapidly over the course of a century or so. We began to appreciate the qualities of the landscape, the environment. However, this does not mean that we are still not destroying it. This mental change must be deeper and broader. So that we can bet precisely on regeneration, on localization and naturalization of economic activity. Not on the bottom line, but on productivity. The right policies must direct technological changes that serve to increase people's cognitive and productive abilities, self-reliance in thinking and acting, and not dominate us, impose someone else's perspective on us. If technologies are used for marketing or even neuromarketing, i.e. making us addicted to consumption, then these technologies are the opposite of what we are talking about. This means that they must be eliminated, or at least curtailed. The state should support those technological solutions that make us independent, making us co-creators - prosumer energy, for example.
Malgorzata: What would this state support consist of?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: On the fact that if someone installs photovoltaics and has a surplus of energy, this surplus is not to be taken over by the state energy distributor, which imposes unfavorable conditions that discourage investment in one's own domestic energy sources. It will take over cheap energy and sell us expensive energy later.
The state should encourage neighborhood and local solutions and favor those based on local energy sources, such as small hydro turbines. A water supply system can also generate energy, not just absorb it. Any flow of water can generate energy. It's a matter of developing and applying certain technologies. We don't need to maintain large centralized energy systems, which, by the way, are prone to major disasters. It will be safer and cheaper if, to some extent, centralized systems complement autonomous and localized energy modules. Such a solution allows consumers to also be energy producers - prosumers.
Malgorzata: So we are now in such a situation that Russia's attack on Ukraine will force us to change attitudes, technologies, and maybe even the state's approach to the citizen and his entrepreneurship?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: I don't know if it will force, because perhaps the change will only be that we will not buy Russian gas, but, for example, Norwegian gas, which is more expensive.
Margaret: Then we are in for a big change related to the aftermath of the war, or not?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: I would not like us to believe that this war automatically, spontaneously changes everything. Although, of course, every war is a disaster that destroys and forces a new beginning. But for now we don't know how long it will last, what repercussions it will have, whether it won't become a wider, supra-local or maybe even global conflict. So we should understand that this war confronts us with the need to rethink many fundamental issues and modify our behavior. It would be most unfortunate if it discourages us from taking necessary actions without this war and postponing them until someday. On the contrary, they must be accelerated now and carried out consistently. Let's not rely on interim solutions, more stopgaps, a nice belief that somehow it will be done.
Margaret: We need big changes in energy policy to protect ourselves from climate change, that's clear. In what other sectors of the economy should changes take place
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: The question arises about the steel industry. To what extent is it able to switch today from a technology that uses energy from burning coal, to what extent should it already be based on "clean" energy. The same for the cement industry, which is very energy-intensive. Another sector is the fertilizer industry. Food production is a big challenge. But changes must also apply to construction and the housing market.
Malgorzata: Housing is another gigantic topic and problem that is growing.
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: We will have to think about whether the housing model that we have developed through the mortgage market and the move toward ownership housing is the right solution for us. Should we not have a strong, middle and largest segment - rental housing. Mainly for those who should not use social housing, but will not be able to afford ownership. This is the future of our middle class. Notice what's happening: more and more large foreign investment funds are buying up apartments today, knowing that most people will have to rent them in the future, because they won't be able to pay a 30-year mortgage under the kind of disruption and change we're seeing at the moment.
At the same time, today, rental housing prices are soaring. For a simple reason - we have an additional 2 million Ukrainians in the country and these people have to live somewhere. Partly they live in public facilities, but more and more often in rented apartments. And even if someone made their second apartment available to someone who was renting before, they can't do that now. Demand has increased and supply has decreased: the price is going up.
The availability of a variable-rate mortgage cannot be maintained at its current level. But let's not delude ourselves either - there are no such loans with a fixed interest rate for thirty years. And if this were imposed by law, such credit would either be very expensive or not offered. The refugee humanitarian crisis also shows how weak the basis of cooperation between cities and community organizations is. We have a wonderful Polish common movement. But this amazing energy is running out. There are no public facilities that can serve as a hospital in some conditions, a school in others. They need to be designed differently and sensibly located in urban spaces.
The world is a place of increasing turbulence. There are likely to be further pandemics. Climate change will not go backwards. Thus, we are facing waves of migration, cyber-attacks will increase. And this means that we need to think differently about configuring manufacturing networks, that supply chains should not be so overextended. The number of lessons to be learned is enormous. For me, the most important thing is to emphasize that we need regenerative thinking, which is about putting the components of our potential together in new creative ways to strengthen resilience and the ability to switch.
Malgorzata: Professor, it all sounds as if we are standing on the eve of some revolution on the scale of the Copernican Revolution, which will happen not sometime in the future, in a few years, but tomorrow, otherwise we won't survive.
Prof.Jerzy Hausner: In a sense, for many years I have been developing a proposal for such a turnaround, that is, to move from an economy of greed to an economy of value.
Margaret: Of course! We've been following the Open Eyes Economy movement closely for several years, we've been talking about it in our pages, we've also been participating in it for some time, which makes us feel a part of it, but in the current context it's gaining exceptional traction. The economics of value is the key here.
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: Open Eyes Economy creates a space for creative understanding, co-thinking and innovative interaction between an economist and an architect, urban planner, sociologist, social organization activist and so on. We do not pit one interest against another, one rationale against another. This is a space for joint action, resulting from reflection and dialogue, the combination of different perspectives and skills.
Margaret: The climate crisis has caused some architects to talk more and more about the need to design the good end of the world. In your opinion, should we design the best possible end of the world, or the beginning of a new, better one?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: Always the end leads to the beginning, and the beginning leads to some end. I am not an enlightened ironist, an intellectual loner who recognizes that nothing can be done. One can only look at how the story will end, and describe it. If we accentuate the end of our world, then we inevitably remain in something that is loaded with the prefix post-, between the possible and the impossible at the same time. My interest is not in the end, but in the beginning. And I want to elaborate with others what it should be, what is most important for us now, what we should strive for and what we should create.
Postmodernism, posthumanism, postliberalism, postglobalism. Continuously remaining in something transitional will not help.
Margaret: Then what will help?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: It's time to finally move on to creating something permanent, though not forever. Let's start talking not only about what we don't want, but also about what we do want. And let's create it, because no one will give it to us. Let's create to our own measure. To the measure of our humanity. Those who constantly talk about the end of the world are catastrophists who fail to cheer people on to find good solutions. Catastrophism leads to helplessness, surrender, hopelessness, resignation. We wait for that end and that's it. At most, we escape with our thoughts from our Titanic.
Margaret: So let's not waste time waiting for the end, but change what doesn't work, cooperate with each other and - I'll venture - do the revolution. Is that so?
Prof. Jerzy Hausner: I am not proposing some kind of total revolution, because that is a dangerous delusion. However, if we are dealing with the climatic regeneration of the city, please note how many practical threads we have in this topic and what a wealth of knowledge that remains at the disposal of many people and can be very useful. The point is toencourage and organize people to solve their own problems, because this will mark a new path, a new beginning. By doing so, we will begin to discuss what transportation should look like in a regenerative city; what the supply of water and the management of its scarce resources should look like; what our city should look like as a territory not only for consumption, but also for the production of healthy food. After all, this war has also caused a huge increase in prices, a likely huge threat of famine in the next year in much of the world, and the need to look for new ways of producing food - less based on the use of chemicals, which will also be in short supply for some time, because it takes a huge amount of energy, including gas, to produce fertilizers. But the most important thing is to change eating habits and reduce its massive waste, which reaches almost 30 percent.
Livestock production is the biggest contributor to climate change. The idea is not to ban meat farming and consumption. We will not force veganism. Let's try to convince people that a more varied, diverse diet can better meet their needs. Let's think about how to meet essential needs, not how to endlessly increase consumption and sales.
Malgorzata: Thank you very much for the interview!
interviewed by Małgorzata Tomczak
Jerzy Hausner - professor of doctoral studies in economics, chairman of the Program Council of the Open Eyes Economy Summit and the Council of the Foundation for Economy and Public Administration, former deputy prime minister and minister of economy, labor and social policy, MP for the Sejm 2001-2005, member of the Monetary Policy Council of the third term, member of the correspondent of the Polish Academy of Arts and Sciences, honorary doctorate of the Warsaw School of Economics.
