Agata: Moving on to another topic - you wrote in the introduction to the third volume of the publication "Changing the Setting. History of Polish Theatrical and Social Scenography of the 20th and 21st Centuries," quoting Leon Schiller, that theater is a political institution. Do you still see theater and stage design as part of a causal political institution?
Robert: Whether one wants it or not, in our reality theater is a political institution. What Schiller said a long time ago that changed the face of theater is still relevant. Nothing will change it, because we live in a political reality. As such, the theater is therefore a political institution: it speaks out on socially important issues. It is bad if it begins to be perceived as the property of one or another power. Then such an institution becomes a propaganda tube of a particular party. This is what Leon Schiller experienced when he became bitterly disillusioned with communism.
In such a view, we theoretically have two types of causality: the social one and the one that happens in the theater space. Theater and art themselves do not function in a vacuum; artists are part of political reality and react to it in ways that are obvious to themselves. The artist-creator-stager is a social barometer. It is possible to make a play that, in the opinion of its creators, is not political, but paradoxically such a statement is an expression of a kind of politicalness, because it is an expression of a certain omission. Throughout history, theater has commented on reality, has been involved in criticism of power, criticism of socio-political reality, religion, the Church or social relations. Schiller, creating independent theater before the war, wanted a political theater, a modern theater, socially engaged. After all, he was the creator of a monumental theater, a unique phenomenon in the history of European theater, which in its assumptions, perhaps naive, was precisely to be politically socially causal.
One of the causal roles played in these productions was the monumental stage design, which many years later, being a bit of a perversion of the idea of monumental theater, became an inspiration for the creators of papal altars. These buildings, by their monumentality, in isolation from art, played a causal role in the renewal and building of a religious and identity community, but above all, through the ceremonies, they played a political role.
The same was true of Reduta [an experimental theater founded by Juliusz Osterwa and Mieczyslaw Limanowski seeking new methods of acting work - editor's note]. and its political theatrical mission - this unique kind of theatrical community was in fact, in a sense, a propaganda tube for Sanation.
Directly in the theater, the causality of stage design emerges at the moment when stage design ceases to perform only decorative functions. Such scenography works in various ways, depending on the artistic language and medium it uses, as it influences the drama, the construction of the staging, the stage movement. Finally, stage design works on many levels of context and meaning, which are the visual messages directed to the audience.
It seems to me that I have been able to realize this perception of causality in a couple of productions with Michal Zadara, so I will mention again the set design for "The Runners", but also "Robbers", "The Actor" or the first production I made with Michal, "Cartoteka". I also value my cooperation with director Marta Górnicka, for whom the stage space is to be completely devoid of decorativeness in favor of meaning and minimalism. This was the case, for example, in the realization of "Hymn to Love," up to the radical abandonment of scenery in favor of organizing the space in "Constitution for a Chorus of Poles."
"Hotel Savoy", directed by Michal Zadara, New Theater in Lodz; in the photo, the musicians
photo: Krzysztof Bielinski
Agata: You said at the beginning of our conversation that you would like to work in a space that is not theatrical, boxy, but public.
Robert: I remember a performance, actually a theatrical-architectural installation that we did in Lodz, in the seven-story Savoy Hotel. We were invited to realize this project by Zdzislaw Jaskola, the late director of the New Theater in Lodz. The plot of Roth's novel ["Hotel Savoy" by Joseph Roth - editor's note] takes place in the hotel where we did the performance. In the 1990s this hotel, like many other businesses, declined. Before the war, it operated on a completely different basis. The author of the novel says it was the gateway to Europe. Roth accurately described the structure of the place, which reflected the social structure of the city of the early 19th century. He described who could live on the second floor and why, who on the second, and so on. Finally, who lived in the attic. We followed this history, structure and social hierarchy. The theatrical space works, you could say, everywhere. Michael and I chose scenes that took place in different spaces of the hotel, and that was in the kitchen, and that was in a particular room chosen, and that was in the courtyard, and that was in the casino and safe room, and that was in the room where there was dancing in the communist years, and of course in the attic. What's more, the viewer could, as in a hypertext book, choose what he or she wanted to watch. In this way, practically everyone could create their own version of the "Hotel Savoy." I made a 1:1 scale map and mapped it on the floors and walls of the hotel corridors. Like in a museum, it acted as a tour path: the viewer could follow the arrows pasted on the walls and windows.
"Hotel Savoy", directed by Michal Zadara, New Theater in Lodz.
photo: Krzysztof Bielinski
One also wandered symbolically in the labyrinth of memory from floor to floor, deep into old Lodz, through the years of communist Poland, affluence, deprivation, war, prosperity of Lodz, when the Savoy Hotel was built. Sometimes the roads diverged and the viewer had to choose, which meant he couldn't see all the scenes. As a result, viewers often came to the show several times. Many friends from Lodz let us know that they watched a scene today that they had previously missed. That someone told them that they had to go to the second floor, go through the dining room to get to it. Some scenes were happening in parallel. The actors also had to wander from stage to stage, making it difficult to get there in time. The attic space could only accommodate thirty people for safety reasons, in which case some audience members had to see another scene. The space and drama of the event were thus derived from the novel, but also dictated by the architectural layout of the hotel, which, as I mentioned, reflected the social hierarchy. We investigated whether reflections on modern times could be drawn from Roth's novel. It turned out that yes. Money and social hierarchies have always been important and painful.
"Hotel Savoy", directed by Michal Zadara, New Theater in Lodz.
photo: Krzysztof Bielinski
I like such spaces very much, because the artist, the stage designer, the playwright, the director have to face them and start thinking differently, sometimes it is so that you have to give yourself to this space, enter it without any assumptions, in order to understand and feel it - then there is a chance that the space will reveal and discover itself.
Agata: Thank you for the interview.
interviewed: Agata SCHWEIGER
Illustrations courtesy of Teatr Powszechny in Warsaw and Teatr Nowy in Lodz.
