Agata: I would like to ask about a very concrete example that made a big impression on me, that is "The Runners" by Michal Zadara at Teatr Powszechny in Warsaw [based on the book by Olga Tokarczuk - editor's note]. It is a deeply theatrical performance, where you use many theatrical tricks, including those from centuries ago, such as lighting with fire. Please tell us who decided that the best place for the staging would be a train station waiting room?
Robert: "The Runners" is a book composed of many essays about movement, constant movement and travel. It can be said that in each of them the hero or heroine travels in different ways. In many, the physical and at the same time philosophical element is the waiting room. From the beginning of my work on staging, I thought about the Kunstkamera, which appears in a few chapters of the book. Thus, our waiting room in the staging of "The Poles" became a bit like such a Kunstkamera with a collection of stories, a "time machine" through which the characters of the story travel in time and space, just like in the novel. Michal Zadara has good staging ideas; the ones I don't understand sometimes inspire me, sometimes not, the ones I understand I try to make realistic. Michal came up with a small waiting room of a train station somewhere in Poland. Doing research, I collected about a thousand illustrations of abandoned, closed and devastated train stations. From these, I selected photos of such ones, which show details and destruction. When Michael saw these photos, he said: "Well, that's right, listen, Tokarczuk lives in the south, in Lower Silesia, admittedly, there are such post-German stations there, but these interiors are, you know, well, kind of communist... the lampposts and these windows bricked up...". And I ended up compiling the space on stage from these photos. To make this space not obvious, I made it dynamic by using different perspectives. In this non-obvious perspective, I placed four simple station benches from the communist era. This is actually a very good design. Wanting to adapt them for the show, I searched in my mind where these benches still stand in Warsaw. I remembered that at the WKD Śródmieście station, and since I often got off there, I took a yardstick, a camera and did the so-called measurement from nature. This allowed me to catch the proportions of the seat and backrest, and I designed the benches to complement the center of our station.
"The Runners," directed by Michal Zadara, Powszechny Theater in Warsaw.
photo: Krzysztof Bielinski
There were probably four designs of different waiting rooms for this play. We were looking for such a space that, first of all, we could do with the funds we happened to have. And they were quite small. I can even say... The set design for "The Runners," and this was two years ago, cost 35 thousand zlotys. I was able to realize the project because there is a great carpentry and modeling room [carpentry and painting and modeling studio - editor's note] at the Powszechny Theater. Well, and above all, there is a great seamstress. In this case, I designed the scenery directly under the capabilities of the stage and technical studios.
The play was being created in co-production with the Cracow's Łaźnia Nowa, so from the beginning it was designed for two different stages. In the course of my work, I received information that it would have its adaptations in other theaters as well. It was quite a challenge. I was designing something that is not conventional, and at the same time it had to be universal and compatible with different stages. These are scenographic challenges that I love. As a result, I immediately consciously created a set design that can fit on almost any stage. The walls are made of modules, so I can make it smaller, I can change the angle of the walls without much loss. The floor of the stage, which is also a proscenium, was designed so that it is not parallel to the audience, but at a slight slant - this perspective solution gave the stage additional spatial dynamics.
All those things you mentioned: the fire on the stage, the darkness, illuminated by candles and even the costumes that appear there are in Tokarczuk's novel. In fifteen years of collaboration, Michael taught me to read the text. Reading meanings for a stage designer is very important, and indeed, in this case a great deal was prompted by Tokarczuk herself. In the book, the author quotes specific events from the history of art and culture, specific images and historical events. We just read it and in a simplified, magical and symbolic way showed it on stage. These are not obvious things, but someone who knows a little about art history can read these symbols and codes in Tokarczuk. The spaces she describes, in which the action takes place, are largely theatrical spaces recorded and painted in the paintings of the old masters. The aforementioned lighting of the stage with candles is a concrete quotation from theater and Baroque painting. This world, which is in Tokarczuk's work, found its way to us in a non-obvious way. I know that Baroque theater is fascinating to Michael, and that's why it was one of the inspirations for us, hence we lit some scenes with candles, for which we had to get permission from the fireman.
"The Runners," directed by Michal Zadara, Powszechny Theater in Warsaw.
photo: Krzysztof Bielinski
Unfortunately, health and safety regulations cannot be jumped over. If the firefighter is wrong, we are able to prove it, but usually he is not wrong, and that's fine. I'd rather listen to the fireman than risk burning down the theater and the safety of people. Of course, if other technical solutions can be found that are just as safe and comply with health and safety requirements, then talking to a firefighter helps, because a good firefighter will make suggestions. Unfortunately, from the point of view of the filmmakers, such compromises don't always work out, but the viewer doesn't really notice that. As I say, a firefighter's word is sacred. This is also what I learned, working on stages abroad.
To make sure that anything could be seen in our show in the scenes where we used candles, we studied the lighting technique in baroque theater. We learned what reflectors were used, how the wicks were trimmed, and finally how the actor had to stand in order to be seen. I designed the appropriate reflectors for the candles. In addition, Michael insisted that the candles had to be eco-friendly. The director's jaw dropped, because such candles are expensive. Fortunately, we managed to save a little and the candles on stage are indeed wax. There was also a long conversation with a firefighter about security and safety on the stage. Thanks to the technical manager, we met all the conditions and it worked out.
Agata: Many stage designers today do not do mock-ups of stage sets. You are one of the few exceptions.
Robert: At the time I was working on "The Poles" there was a pandemic going on and there weren't many rehearsals in the theater; those that were, were done online, so I also did a large part of the set design, including the mock-up, thanks to consulting with the director over the Internet.
I make mock-ups because I enjoy making them. Because I learn the architecture of the stage by heart, I can then see the space, its internal relationships. Like Michael, I like to use seemingly archaic design methods. I also work with mockups because, unlike visuals, they don't cheat. It is impossible to hide anything on a mockup. True, we have everything to scale, but this is enough to imagine the stage space and the designed scenery. It is also a great tool for explaining to technicians and theater specialists what the creators of the show have in mind, it makes it easier to understand their intentions. Finally, the mock-up is a tool for the director and choreographer in working with the actor in the rehearsal room.
Agata: Can you see them in theaters?
Robert: I don't leave mock-ups in the theater anymore. First of all, because most of them have been thrown away. It used to be that every theater had an archive. After performances, all the documentation was left in it. They collected blueprints, drawings, mock-ups and photos that documented the performance. Today, photographic documentation is dictated by advertising requirements, and it is difficult to find overall shots of the stage from many performances. Nowadays it is good if theaters collect at least digital documentation of scenic designs.
In my studio, I have mock-ups of the scenes I have worked on, and depending on the orders, I replace the scenery in them. The work of a stage designer has changed, new tools for design and visualization have emerged. Many stage designers do 2D designs; many don't even do designs, they just bring inspiration and then the carpenter and the locksmith figure out how to make it. Sometimes the technical manager, who has some skill, draws the design under the supervision of the stage designer.
In addition to mock-ups and preliminary sketches done by hand with pencil and paints, I use the computer, and in exceptional situations I commission visualization. In the computer I make detailed drawings, which show the main dimensions of the scenery elements, specify the material and explain the design assumptions. If the scenography is complicated, these drawings are used to develop detailed drawings by an engineer with structural rights. The stage designer does not have technical authority and cannot do structural statics, strength designs, which must comply with regulations and standards. The engineer draws out my design in detail, taking into account the possibilities of combining materials and the capabilities of the technical studio. Often, before starting work, I also receive guidelines that tell me the maximum dimensions of scenery elements. This is related to the possibility of storage, transportation, but also bringing to the stage. Often one of the requirements of a stage design is to fit into a specific budget, so I also do cost estimation. Another guideline is the time it takes to put up and take down the scenery on stage.
If the theater has the resources to work with an engineer, the technical manager gets the stage design elements carefully laid out and information on how much and what to buy. In many cases, when the budget does not allow for hiring an engineer and detailed static or structural calculations are not needed, I prepare the design as best I can. For my own peace of mind, I consult with a friendly engineer if I have any doubts.
continued conversation on next page
