Michal: What about the criticism of the other side? I would like us to see this exhibition in the broader perspective of interwar Poland. What about the art that was produced in large quantities for the Church at the time? What about the role of the landed gentry as an important patron and symbolic hegemon? Wasn't the Pavilion of the Landed Women and Vagrancy from the Poznan General National Exhibition, shown at the exhibition, a gesture of a certain limited legitimacy that these few, but nevertheless very influential circles, were willing to offer to the young state?
Andrew: We certainly talk about references to tradition more than in other exhibitions devoted to this subject. We will see, for example, Karol Hiller's work on sacred themes, where, despite modern geometrization, the author refers to very traditional iconography. We show the works of Helena Schrammówna, the author of icon-inspired religious paintings, and there is also a modern icon by Mykhailo Boychuk in this context. These are examples of how they tried to modernize tradition, and such tradition interests us. This appeal to tradition was, I believe, crucial to the success of modernization, allowing it to be corrected and adapted to Polish realities, and thus it could gain wide acceptance.
Let's also remember that the promoters of modernity, including important investors, were also landowners or the wealthy metropolitan class, not just Poland's very narrow middle class. The aforementioned pavilion was, of course, shown in counterpoint to Anatolia Hryniewiecki-Piotrowska's Women's Labor Pavilion, but de facto these were two different visions of the same thing - the importance of women for modern Poland. As an aside, it can be added that modernization also required models of modernity that only a few could afford. Landowners, for example, promoted modern lifestyles by participating in car races or air races, among them were many women, as the exhibition reminds us.
"Polish Fiat" poster, design: Wojciech Kossak, 1934
© MNW Poster Museum in Wilanów
Michal: Is this an example of modernization, or an example of adapting a certain fashion for modernity, which is in a way a superficial, epidermal assimilation of something that comes from the center, arrives from the West, which we fear, but which we crave?
Andrew: Some of these developments were consumerist and nothing more, it's true. But at the same time they promoted the image of the "new man", which they wanted to emulate in one way or another. Besides, I would not like us to fall into such a dichotomy that we fear the West and crave it at the same time. "A New Beginning" is not about Poland being afraid of the West. All of Europe at the time, including Polish authors, were convinced that the West was threatened and that it needed to be saved. Polish artists were co-creators of European artistic life. Strzeminski felt so comfortable in an international environment because he believed he was part of this more broadly defined West, which included Poland. When we look at other parts of the exhibition, such as those on architecture, we see how much these projects fit into universal processes, only they are interpreted from our perspective. This dichotomy of us versus the West does not work in this case.
"Zakopane in New York," by Leon Chwistek, 1917-1922
© MNK Digitization Studio
Michal: So Central Europe in your narrative is not yet the hijacked Europe that Czeslaw Milosz and Tomas Venclova wrote about, but part of a big family?
Andrew: Yes, in its collective consciousness, this part of Europe believed that it was back in its place, it is at home, and only needed to reaffirm its existence and importance. Western Europe was also ready for this right after the war, as evidenced by the Paris Exhibition in 1925, where the pavilions of Poland and Czechoslovakia were most appreciated, not only for artistic reasons, but also for political reasons, to show that both countries were back in Europe's salons.
Michal: In the exhibition you show new figures that have not been presented before, for example, Mykhailo Boychuk. Where did you get the idea to reach for these collections? Is it a result of the fact that today it's easier for us to cooperate with galleries from Ukraine or Lithuania, which was not possible before, or is it a conscious decision and a certain process of growing up or interpreting the art of the Second Polish Republic in this way?
Andrew: Certainly it is due to the real opportunities that exist now, because of the war, but more important is the other issue, that is, growing up to believe that modernization in the Second Republic was indeed created by all the nations living there. Besides, it was seen as an opportunity to overcome ethnic tensions; together we were to build a modern country. And Boychuk has long fascinated me, and this exhibition is a great opportunity to finally show his works in Krakow.
By the way, I think that investigating the participation of Ukrainian artists in particular in the history of modernity in the Second Republic is a task for the near future. Lviv of that time is a model artistic center, where Polish, Jewish and Ukrainian artists create, and we should learn a lot more about its specificity and autonomy. Going a step further, our exhibition shows that also in the study of 20th century art it is important to discover the connections between artists from the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which, I believe, will also rewrite many chapters of Polish art history.
"Still Life with Chalice," by Władysław Strzemiński, circa 1939.
© National Museum in Poznań
Michal: In the 1930s, there is a voice of pessimism in Lviv and an awareness of the loss of the position of the city, which had been the capital of Galicia, now became the center of a smaller and weaker province. In this new reality, the national conflict was strongly present, and the outflow of elites, especially of the younger generation, to Warsaw and Upper Silesia was also visible. The situation in Vilnius was quite similar. One gets the impression that the Second Polish Republic had no idea what to do with these cities. The real interests of the state were already shifting westward, toward the axis connecting Katowice and Gdynia. In the exhibition there is a theme of the changing map, mainly the borders of the state, we see there the Castle of the President of the Republic in Vistula, there is an observatory on Mount Pop Ivan. But what about the structural changes within the state?
Andrew: There are several maps in the exhibition, including a map of the main new radio stations throughout the country and a map on a propaganda poster showing Poland after the reforms, when the division into Poland A and B will be eliminated in the 1950s. So we talk about modernization reaching beyond the central centers, showing enclaves of modernity such as Pop Ivan or Lisków - a model modernist village in Greater Poland. We recall tourist investments in the provinces of the eastern provinces, expanding the areas where modernist architecture appears. At the time, efforts were made to develop modernity evenly, so it was not just a shift of central centers to the west of the country.
exhibition space
photo: Patryk Jezierski
Michal: The Second Polish Republic was a country inhabited by many national minorities, primarily Ukrainian and Jewish. They, too, were building their modernity, and this modernity did not necessarily follow the same course as the Polish one. To what extent does the exhibition at the National Museum allow you to understand this phenomenon?
Andrzej: It's also a new area of research, although we know relatively most about Jewish art today, but we're learning about new things all the time, for example, the modernizing role of Jewish cinema. Was it such a different modernity? This can be debated, but certain emancipation processes happened in parallel and were similar to each other. Perhaps it is worth emphasizing all the more the autonomy of specific phenomena, such as Yiddish literature or the Ukrainian avant-garde in Lviv? But it was precisely the achievement of the Second Republic to convince citizens of different origins that modernity could be a common project that would unite everyone. This worked better among the middle class of the big cities, but was also contested, for example, by the Zionist movement or nationalist Ukrainian organizations.
"Feather" chair, design: Jan Kurzątkowski, 1934
© National Museum in Warsaw
Michal: Since the 1980s, Polish culture has been building a nostalgic image of the Second Polish Republic, which today probably resonates most strongly in our collective consciousness. To what extent do we today live such a somewhat adulterated image of this country, seeing signs of modernization, like a car or a radio, but often missing the reality? You talk about real achievements in the exhibition. The reality of the period is also conflicts, poverty, inequality. The cliché obscuring reality must have been a challenge for the curators.
Andrzej: But let's ask, what is this cliché of the Second Republic really like? Because the cliché you're talking about is functioning, but the other cliché you mentioned is also strong, that of a state torn apart by ethnic and social conflicts, where politicians were killed, strikes broke out, famine and illiteracy reigned. Both one and the other are images that are not necessarily real, and the country clearly had different faces. How to deal with these clichés is an open question, although it seems to me that we already look at the Second Republic in a more differentiated way. Perhaps the desire for glorification stems from the black legend of the twentieth century that was created in the People's Republic, as can be seen, if only by watching films of the time, in which interwar Poland is usually degenerated, poor and helpless.
exhibition space
Photo: Mykyta Platonov
Michal: Well, yes, but after martial law comes nostalgia, the luxury of racing in Sluzewiec in contrast to empty store shelves.
Andrew: Indeed, however, we can't leave out the threads that speak of such achievements. We wanted the exhibition to show these issues as well, and to make the picture of the era much more diverse, and therefore more realistic. The key criterion for selection was the desire to show a real state and history that actually happened. The dispute over the Second Republic will continue for a long time to come. And I think that also thanks to it, we know more and more about those times, and those clichés, one or the other, are no longer credible. Today, we are closer to believing that the Second Republic was a successful "new beginning" of modernization that happened despite the costs and setbacks, that something good began to happen then. And that, in my opinion, is fair to the story.
Michal: In the preparation of any large and complex exhibition, there is a moment when the main goals have already been achieved, and that's when the realization comes that something is missing or that something could still have been accommodated. Or did you have such a moment of reflection, or did something emerge that, thanks to this exhibition, you will say on the third, next exhibition?
Andrew: On the basis of this exhibition we are already building the next one and the next one, organizing the whole series is also a learning process. I think that in the context of the first and second exhibitions it is already very clear that in Poland modernization is closely related to both artistic experimentation and the question of freedom, including political independence. The next part will be about the times of the People's Republic of Poland, and we want to open it in late autumn next year, with the last part to open before the end of 2024. Working at such a pace is only possible thanks to the cooperation of a large team of curators from the National Museum in Cracow and invited experts from outside. This is a unique and very valuable experience, contrary to the belief that curatorial practice is primarily an individual activity. It convinces me of the value of collective curating, shows how creative teamwork is and how good the results are.
Michael: Thank you for the interview.
Sculpture "Self-Portrait Going Toward the Sun," pro: Xawery Dunikowski, 1917-1920
© MNW Museum of Sculpture in Królikarnia
interviewed by Michal WIŚNIEWSKI
Illustrations courtesy of the National Museum in Cracow.
